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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #26 
Thanks Riggs!  I have a bunch of ladders waiting to be shot... just waiting for a good day.  Hopefully this week!
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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerJoe
Thanks Riggs!  I have a bunch of ladders waiting to be shot... just waiting for a good day.  Hopefully this week!

Joe, give me a break! "A good day????" I live in Minnesota and half of my family has already bailed to Arizona. [biggrin]
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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #28 
LOL - so, I see there are smart genes in the Riggs family tree???  [biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl]

No offense intended... just couldn't resist!

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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerJoe
LOL - so, I see there are smart genes in the Riggs family tree???  [biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl][biggrin][rofl]

No offense intended... just couldn't resist!

No offense was taken. Since I have only met "dummy Joe" at the shoot I guess I have to cut you some slack. However, as a rebuttal, I will add that the 3 siblings that reside in AZ are girls....the 3 boys stayed here.[tongue]

I will also go on record stating that I think they are all more intelligent than me, however, it took me less than 3 1/2 years to earn my BSME so I guess being on the bottom of my family totem pole ain't half bad.
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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #30 
Touché my good man!  I take my hat off to you hearty souls that endure artic winters!

PS: The "real" R.J. has somewhat more personality and depth than the likeness (so kindly generated by Wikster) that you met this past August!  [wink] 

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #31 
Edited 01-MAR-19: Warning regarding my "hot" X-Terminator load; 27-APR-19 to correct COAL.

New .20 Viper data to add to the list...  I only did limited testing for accuracy today; pain level was too high for good shooting, the longer I shot, the worse the groups got.  20" 1:12 Light-weight profile barrel, rifle length gas system.  Firing range = 60 yards.

NEW (non-fire-formed) LC 1x fired brass (RTL), Wolf SR-Mil primer, Nosler 32gr VG HP Flatbase, 2.080" COAL, 5 rounds each.  Every round weighed on digital scale:

Ramshot X-Terminator:
26.0gr X-Term=3,854 fps, SD=21.8 - 1 called flyer, 4-rds=0.45"
26.3gr X-Term=3,902 fps, SD=39.9 - 5 rds = 0.85", 4-rds=0.65"
26.6gr X-Term=3,935 fps, SD=31.8 - 5-rds=0.65", 4-rds=0.50"
26.9gr X-Term=4,026 fps, SD=12.2 - 5-rds=1.40", 4-rds=1.20"

Alliant Varmint:
26.2gr Varmint=3,591 fps, SD=31.4 - bad group >2"
26.5gr Varmint=3,651 fps, SD=17.9 - 1 called flyer, 4-rds=0.75"
26.8gr Varmint=3,710 fps, SD=6.5 - 5-rds=1.2", 4-rds=0.70"
27.1gr Varmint=3,738 fps, SD=15.3 - 5-rds=1.3", 4-rds=0.75"

BL-C2:
28.6gr BL-C2=3,763 fps, SD=10.4 - 4-rds=0.65" (light compression)
28.9gr BL-C2=3,817 fps, SD=14.6 - 4-rds=0.70" (light compression)
29.2gr BL-C2=3,858 fps, SD=13.7 - 4-rds=0.65" (moderate compression)
29.5gr BL-C2=3,915 fps, SD=28.3 - 4-rds=0.95" (mod/heavy compression)

H322:
26.0gr H322=3,962 fps, SD=21.2 - bad groups, my problem - not the rifle's.
26.3gr H322=4,001 fps, SD=18.0
26.6gr H322=4,023 fps, SD=12.0
26.9gr H322 (light compression) = 4,053 fps, SD=14.7


Fireformed brass, resized to 1.429" (+/- 0.0005") with Hornady "A" H/S comparator.  CCI-41 Primer, 32gr Nosler VG-HP, 2.080" COAL

Ramshot X-Terminator:
DANGER - OVER MAX  …  27.6gr X-Term=4,111 fps, SD=16 - 5-rds=0.65", 4-rds=0.55"
Edit 01-Mar-19: I deprimed and measured all fired cases today.. this load is TOO HOT.  All cases had loosened primer pockets, 3 of the 5 accepting the No-Go end of the primer tool gauge.  Although no primers blew or punctured during testing... they were all pretty flat.  This load (brass, powder charge, primer, bullet, chamber combination) is TOO HOT and should not be duplicated. 

I'll try a slightly lower charge with the 32gr V-Max… those have less bearing surface and should be lower pressure.


Alliant Varmint:
27.5gr Varmint=3,769 fsp, SD=5.9 - 5-rds=0.95", 4-rds=0.55"



ALL loads functioned flawlessly!  No loads, except the hottest Ramshot X-Term, showed any pressure signs - every case measured after depriming.

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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerJoe
New .20 Viper data to add to the list...  I only did limited testing for accuracy today; pain level was too high for good shooting, the longer I shot, the worse the groups got.

Glad to see you joined the 4K club, RJ! I will add the data to the Excel and Google Doc tomorrow. 

How much of the projo is in the case at that length? I defaulted to 1 caliber on my loads, however, I know there is room for stretch.
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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIGGS68
Glad to see you joined the 4K club, RJ! I will add the data to the Excel and Google Doc tomorrow. 
LOL - yup, both with NEW and Fireformed brass!  I told you I was chasing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIGGS68
How much of the projo is in the case at that length? I defaulted to 1 caliber on my loads, however, I know there is room for stretch.
I'll need to measure with a mic... I "eyeballed" it to just above the case neck/shoulder junction.

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #34 
More Viper food arrived today !!  [biggrin]
IMG_0812 (2).jpg


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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerJoe
More Viper food arrived today !!

Great minds think alike.....I went for coyote fodder, however.
Coy20.jpg 

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #36 
ALCON - I deprimed and measured all the brass from yesterday's testing.  The hottest Ramshot X-Terminator load in the fireformed brass was too hot and dangerous.  I've edited the notes above.

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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #37 
Data from today: 
Note: It was a nice day (30 F) and my prior ladders were completed at an indoor range, therefore I expect that the velocities would be higher under those conditions. A 23.5 SWBO/90 GD loading, for example, averaged 2668 today and normally runs 2730+. Likewise, 26.5 TAC/95 Fusion resulted in 2678 today whereas at 80 F yielded 2790....so keep this in mind when developing your own loads.

24" 1:8 SPR 20 Viper
F/Formed - LC mixed
40 Berger  COAL 2.15
CCI 450 primer

8208    26.0    3700    24
           26.3    3750    18
           26.6    3804    20   *best accuracy*
           26.9    3883    10   *slight cratering*

Bench  25.3    3662    23
           25.6    3719    38
           25.9    3788    11    *slight cratering*
           26.2    3826    16    *flat primers and cratering...too hot*

10X     24.0    3590    24
           24.3    3655    13    
           24.6    3685    26    *best accuracy*
           24.9    3738    29
           
WC844/34 VNE fireforming load ladder (5 each)
LC-mixed
COAL: 2.10 
CCI 450

27.0    3827    23
27.3    3890    18
27.6    3925    11   *best accuracy*
27.9    3971    18

100-yard 24.6 10X group:
target_10X.jpg 


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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #38 
Excellent - thanks buddy.  Looks like WC844/H335 will work nicely for fireforming!  I'll try some at the same weights to see how they behave in my 20" 1:12 at 4,700' MSL
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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #39 
Got some 32 vmax loaded will be shooting in a few   I updated the google data book also

20 viper 32v re10x.jpg  20 viper 32vmax re10x.jpg  20 viper 32v h335.jpg


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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #40 
Well at 4250 and 4289 with a 32 i have the speed record so far i do have a 26 inch barrel too though [biggrin][biggrin]

now that i am in the game you guys may have a hard time keeping up.  [tongue][tongue][rofl][rofl]

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #41 
What can I say... there is the BIGG DAWG and then everybody else.  [cool][biggrin][tongue][rofl]

… and I'm too old to suffer from barrel length envy!!  [crazy][nono][rofl]

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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #42 
Updated Excel load file with all current load data..

 
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xlsx 20 VIPER LOAD DATA (3_11).xlsx (28.44 KB, 7 views)

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #43 
While I'm still recovering from my last spinal fusion, I've had to refrain from any "recoil therapy" - however, I enlisted my youngest son (a damn fine shooter) to test my .20 Viper fireforming loads WITHOUT the MagnetoSpeed chrono attached to the barrel. 

As a reminder, this is an 20" light-weight 1:12 twist barrel with a thinned down MDWS HMD on the end.  He fired 5 rounds of each load that I'd tested above at 60 yards from a picnic table with a rest under the handguard.  Winds were mild at 7~12 MPH, mostly from 7:30-8:00.  Here are several interesting results:

Load & Powder: Previous Tested MVavg: 5-shot / 4-shot group size

26.5gr Varmint: 3,651fps  .50"/.40"
26.8gr Varmint: 3,710fps  .65"/.40"
26.9gr H322:  4,053fps  .75"/.65"
28.9gr BLC-2:  3,817fps  .60"/.45"
29.2gr BLC-2: 3,858fps  1.0"/.45"

Most of the 5 shot groups printed two, or three clusters; typically 2~3 bullets in one hole, then 1~3 in another.  There was also an obvious tendency for vertical stringing as the barrel got hot.  He fired 90-100 rounds with one break around 60-rds to swab the bore and let the rifle cool.

All in all, it appears this cartridge is capable of sub-MOA accuracy in the 3,700~4,000 fps range with only a 20" barrel... and all that while fireforming brass!

I've got additional rounds loaded, both with new and formed brass, to test as soon as the docs give me permission....  more to follow!

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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #44 
Load data from today. I wasn't shooting for accuracy (indoors and limited to 50 yards) just looking at velocity, pressure signs, and SDs.

24" SPR 1:8 twist

32 NVT 2.17 COAL H335
Fresh:

26.5     3976     3986      9
            3948
            3995

26.8     4045     4024      19
            4023
            4006

27.1     4048     4063      14
            4066
            4076

27.4     4122     4119      16
            4134
            4102

27.6     4147     4165      28
            4198
            4152

28.0     4167     *Stopped here

F/Formed

27.0     3992     4023     27
            4040
            4039

27.3     4097     4087     11
            4087       
            4076

27.6     4110     4095     18
            4074
            4101

27.9     4139     4120     18
            4102
            4121

28.2     4187     4181     46
            4230
            4173

39 SMK/ WC844 (pulled powder) - 2 shot COAL 2.22

26.0     3666
            3736

26.3     3748
            3689

26.6     3701
            3733

26.9     3783
            3789

27.2     3825
            3874

45 Hornady SP COAL 2.105 (Have to watch length on these!)

8208:

25.0     3621     3592      29
            3592
            3563

25.3     3604     3602      8
            3593      
            3609

25.6     3663     3649     27
            3668
            3618

25.9     3720     3697      20
            3692
            3690

Benchmark:

24.0     3504      3490     15
            3494
            3474

24.3     3504     3514     16
            3533
            3505

24.6     3546     3562     30
            3597
            3543

24.9     3581     3594      11
            3601
            3601

H335:

24.3     3512     3534      19
            3546
            3544

24.6     3578     3577     6
            3571    
            3583

24.9     3540     3577     40
            3571
            3583

25.2     3566     3602     31
            3619
            3621


40 Berger/TAC    COAL 2.15

26.0     3585     3618    40
            3607
            3664

26.3     3709     3731    20
            3749
            3737

26.6     3787     3778    19
            3756
            3791

26.9     3766    3762    74
            3686
            3835

27.2     3851    3830    21
            3809
            3831

27.5     3882    3878    5
            3880
            3873

34 VNE/ 27.3 WC844 fireforming load 

10 shot:   3907    SD 36
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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerJoe
While I'm still recovering from my last spinal fusion, I've had to refrain from any "recoil therapy" - however, I enlisted my youngest son (a damn fine shooter) to test my .20 Viper fireforming loads WITHOUT the MagnetoSpeed chrono attached to the barrel. 

As a reminder, this is an 20" light-weight 1:12 twist barrel with a thinned down MDWS HMD on the end.  He fired 5 rounds of each load that I'd tested above at 60 yards from a picnic table with a rest under the handguard.  Winds were mild at 7~12 MPH, mostly from 7:30-8:00.  Here are several interesting results:

Load & Powder: Previous Tested MVavg: 5-shot / 4-shot group size

26.5gr Varmint: 3,651fps  .50"/.40"
26.8gr Varmint: 3,710fps  .65"/.40"
26.9gr H322:  4,053fps  .75"/.65"
28.9gr BLC-2:  3,817fps  .60"/.45"
29.2gr BLC-2: 3,858fps  1.0"/.45"

Most of the 5 shot groups printed two, or three clusters; typically 2~3 bullets in one hole, then 1~3 in another.  There was also an obvious tendency for vertical stringing as the barrel got hot.  He fired 90-100 rounds with one break around 60-rds to swab the bore and let the rifle cool.

All in all, it appears this cartridge is capable of sub-MOA accuracy in the 3,700~4,000 fps range with only a 20" barrel... and all that while fireforming brass!

I've got additional rounds loaded, both with new and formed brass, to test as soon as the docs give me permission....  more to follow!

RJ, Do you have the loading specifics so I can add it to the spreadsheet? I am assuming 32 NVHP
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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #46 
Yes - these are exact same loads as tested before.  Fresh (non-fireformed) LC-06 brass, 32gr Nosler VG-HP, 2.080" COAL, Wolf SR-Mil (magnum) primer.

If you're updating the spreadsheet, please correct my COALs from 2.180" to 2.080". At my age, I should switch to digital micrometers!...LOL

Today I loaded a series of fireforming ladders with CFE223 & 32gr NVG-HP and also formed brass with X-Term and 32gr V-Max @ 2.155".  Hope to test soonest...

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #47 
Was loading fireforming ladders today with CFE223; my highest load was 30.3gr, which is well below QL's max prediction for a formed case.  Even using a 9" drop tube, the cases were filled nearly to the mouth top (on left).  For grins, I put the same charge into a fireformed & resized case (on right)… not even to the neck/shoulder junction.
IMG_0867 (2).jpg 
With CFE223, there is 1.9~2.0gr of powder capacity gain between non-fireformed and fireformed LC-06 brass. 


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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #48 
Current data as far as I know. Please let me know if I missed anything.

 
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xlsx 20 VIPER LOAD DATA (4_27).xlsx (31.57 KB, 1 views)

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