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dmr

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Reply with quote  #1 
gooday to everyone.  new member from PA with a new build utilizing an 18" barrel and .750 gas block purchased at same time as barrel.  the brass was formed from LC with case length 1.530", COAL is 2.185".

loaded three rounds with 1680 powder @22.0 grains under a sierra 110 bullet.  primers really flat and cases scarcely ejecting.  tried loading 3 more with 1680 powder @21.5 and same bullet, now stove piping and last cartridge not picked up from magazine.  

i thought it may be undergassing so i checked the gas connections and everything is tight and clean.
the ejected brass is relatively clean with just the primers really flattened.  any suggestions or thoughts of what i may have done incorrectly?   

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bbbrownfield

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Have you measured the headspace on the cartridges? Could be you have too much- that will leave you with really flat primers at lower pressures. Also, check to make sure your gas block is truly in the right position- the set screw must be into the dimple completely, and you can never just put a gas block on down to the shoulder and have the holes in the barrel and gas block line up.
Others who know more than I will be here to answer any questions you have.

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dmr

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Reply with quote  #3 
the gas block is secured and dimpled properly and aligned with the barrel gas hole.  i double checked that yesterday and even measured to make certain it aligned.  would you please explain the head space on the cartridges?  this might be something i'm not quite with.  just an old fool here.

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bbbrownfield

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The headspace is the distance from the base of the cartridge to a point on the cartridge shoulder- in the Wolverine that point is where a .330 inch diameter circle sits on the cartridge shoulder. Headspace is 1.265 minus a few thousandths of an inch tolerance. If your firearm has 1.265, but the cartridges you prepared are, say, 1.250, the cartridge will have too little headspace and move back and forth in the chamber. When you fire it, it moves back against the bolt and flattens the primer. The cartridge fills the available space in the chamber after firing- get a headspace gage and check a fired case against an unfired one to determine how much you are off by. Hornady makes a good gage. You can also use a 9mm pistol shell. The exact number isn't important but you have to know what it is and adjust accordingly. The cartridge headspace should be .003-.005 shorter than the headspace on the fired case and the firearm.
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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #5 
first does the ammo hand cycle? load a mag with 3 or 4 rounds can you hand cycle them fine?

is the 1.53 with the hornady 320 insert?  that seems a little short most of my wolverines are fired cases around 1.6 give or take i normally size to 1.56 or so not that what you got won't work. i would measure your fired cases to see where they are at.

3rd those are pretty high charges for a 110 22 grains to 22.5 is known max for that combination.

you need to check the gas port hole in the gas tube to make sure it is not blocked in the gas block i have had 3 now that the hole in the tube is partially blocked in the gas block and i have had to drill them out. need to check and make sure the gas key isn't leaking, the gas rings on the bolt are not aligned and leaking, there is a good seal gas key to gas tube.  

what buffer are you running? we have seen some buffers have the wrong weight also. 

i like to swap parts with known working combos when i run into problems, so i will swap a lower with a gun that runs fine to rule buffer out. i will swap bcg's with rifles to rule that out.  i even swap gas tube/gas blocks to rule them out.  you can check the port size and reply back that is one thing i don't check when i ship because we have not had any issues with ports being too small.

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dmr

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Reply with quote  #6 
BB, 

i understand the headspace issue and truly appreciate your explanation.  this was the whole reason i purchased the bolt and carrier with the barrel.  this way i didn't have to spend the extra C note for a set of head space gages.  maybe i should have gotten them anyway, eh?
you mentioned a hornady gage.  are you speaking of an overall length gage or an actual head space gage--go, no-go, field?


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kb31416

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Reply with quote  #7 
My build is with a 20” Barrel in an A2 fixe so that I could and I had the same problem that you described with multiple bullet weights from 90 to 130 grain bullets and six different ladders, all with A1680. Brass was from JBs. Some loads ejected 2 o/c, some 4 oc, but many stuck cases, and even some blown primers.
I switched to a carbine buffer and spring, and that seems to have solved my problem for now. I was able to get one load to cycle reliably so that I could get some zeros for deer hunting. (Deer never showed up- bummer). My next step is to try some other loads now that hunting season is over. First to insure functionality, then accuracy optimization.
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dmr

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Reply with quote  #8 
bigdawg,

yes the ammo did hand cycle with no issues.  i don't quite understand the hornady 320?  the 1.530" is the length of the case itself.  the overall cartridge length with is 2.185".  the fired cases measured at 1.530".  i'll try some at 1.600" and see what happens.
what do you suggest for a starting charge using the 1680 and 110 bullets?  i reviewed the load data and noticed charges using the same somewhat higher and some lower.
i checked the gas port hole and was able to blow air clearly through it.   gas key is solid and tightly staked and gas rings on the bolt are not aligned.
the buffer is a carbine.  i had some reservations and thought i should consider a rifle buffer instead. your thoughts?  
i can't figure out why it's stove piping.  the last 2 cartridges did that whereas the previous ones hardly ejected.  i had a brass catcher set up so i wouldn't lose them in the snow and i felt one hit me in the foot.  i removed and checked the extractor and the angle is correct and the ejector and plunger are--were working properly until i puked the ejector roll pin.  so now one of those are on the way. 

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dmr

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Reply with quote  #9 
kb,

if you don't mind me asking, what charges were you using with your 1680/110 bullet loads?  strangely, i have a carbine buffer and was considering opting the rifle size.


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wikster1983

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Reply with quote  #10 
Dmr the gages they are refering to are these- its a comparator to measure how much you are bumping the shoulder back on a fired case during resize.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/479704/hornady-lock-n-load-headspace-gauge-5-bushing-set-with-comparator

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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #11 
The Hornady gage measures the headspace using a bushing of a certain size, and attaches to a pair of dial calipers or a digital caliper. Costs about $45 and is a nice tool to have, has 5 different bushings of different diameters for different cartridges.
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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr
BB, 

i understand the headspace issue and truly appreciate your explanation.  this was the whole reason i purchased the bolt and carrier with the barrel.  this way i didn't have to spend the extra C note for a set of head space gages.  maybe i should have gotten them anyway, eh?
you mentioned a hornady gage.  are you speaking of an overall length gage or an actual head space gage--go, no-go, field?

There seems to be some misunderstanding about use of the term 'head space' going on here.  There are two kinds of head space.  One is termed 'chamber head space' and that is the distance from the bolt face to the midpoint of the chamber shoulder.  That is what gets measured when you use go/no-go gauges.  When you chamber a round, the clearance between the case shoulder and the chamber shoulder is called 'cartridge head space'.  That's what the Hornady gauge measures.

A fired case should measure about 1.265" in the Hornady gauge using the .330 bushing.  After sizing, it should measure about 1.262" which indicates head space of .003".  Those numbers will vary some depending on your particular chamber, but the relevant number is the .003".  If you set the shoulder back too much on sizing, that number will get bigger.  If it gets up in the .008-.010" range, then the primer will back out on firing, then get reseated as pressure builds and show severe flattening even though pressure may be OK.

I agree with Bruce that those charges are also very close to max for 1680 with a 110 bullet.  Drop back to 21 and retest.

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr
bigdawg,

yes the ammo did hand cycle with no issues.  i don't quite understand the hornady 320?  the 1.530" is the length of the case itself.  the overall cartridge length with is 2.185".  the fired cases measured at 1.530".  i'll try some at 1.600" and see what happens.
what do you suggest for a starting charge using the 1680 and 110 bullets?  i reviewed the load data and noticed charges using the same somewhat higher and some lower.
i checked the gas port hole and was able to blow air clearly through it.   gas key is solid and tightly staked and gas rings on the bolt are not aligned.
the buffer is a carbine.  i had some reservations and thought i should consider a rifle buffer instead. your thoughts?  
i can't figure out why it's stove piping.  the last 2 cartridges did that whereas the previous ones hardly ejected.  i had a brass catcher set up so i wouldn't lose them in the snow and i felt one hit me in the foot.  i removed and checked the extractor and the angle is correct and the ejector and plunger are--were working properly until i puked the ejector roll pin.  so now one of those are on the way. 

1.530 refers to the OAL of the case, and has nothing to do with head space.  See the other posts on head space.  The correct bushing to use with the Wolverine in the Hornady gauge is marked 'A 330'.  320 is probably a typo.

With carbine gas, at max pressure, it is very easy to have the bolt carrier moving fast enough to override the magazine and not pick up the next round, or catch the ejecting case on the return stroke before it clears the port causing a stove pipe jam.  If the gas system is right, cases should eject at about 4 o'clock, with the muzzle being at 12.  You don't want to go to rifle gas.

Start by getting the head space right, and back off on the load a bit.  See how that works, and proceed accordingly.

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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr
bigdawg,

yes the ammo did hand cycle with no issues.  i don't quite understand the hornady 320?  the 1.530" is the length of the case itself.  the overall cartridge length with is 2.185".  the fired cases measured at 1.530".  i'll try some at 1.600" and see what happens.
what do you suggest for a starting charge using the 1680 and 110 bullets?  i reviewed the load data and noticed charges using the same somewhat higher and some lower.
i checked the gas port hole and was able to blow air clearly through it.   gas key is solid and tightly staked and gas rings on the bolt are not aligned.
the buffer is a carbine.  i had some reservations and thought i should consider a rifle buffer instead. your thoughts?  
i can't figure out why it's stove piping.  the last 2 cartridges did that whereas the previous ones hardly ejected.  i had a brass catcher set up so i wouldn't lose them in the snow and i felt one hit me in the foot.  i removed and checked the extractor and the angle is correct and the ejector and plunger are--were working properly until i puked the ejector roll pin.  so now one of those are on the way. 

no not case lenght don't go to 1.6 i am talking head space with the hornady comparator with any round you need to set the shoulder on the brass correctly. here is a blog post i did on the subject

http://www.7mmvalkyrie.com/blog/wildcats-how-to-set-shoulder-bump

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RedRaider

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Reply with quote  #15 
My 18” blows primers @21gr w110’s. My max is 20.8 1680
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battle rattle

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbrownfield
The headspace is the distance from the base of the cartridge to a point on the cartridge shoulder ...
bbbrownfield has described cartridge headspace vs chamber headspace which is measured/checked using the Go / No-Go gauges

during your brass forming & sizing it's possible the shoulder is 'bumped back' too far and the cartridge headspace is excessive allowing the cartridge to bounce around in the chamber

in a matter of milliseconds the firing pin strikes the primer and the cartridge pushes forward in the chamber as the powder ignites. because there's excess clearance between the cartridge and the bolt face, the primer gets forced out of it's pocket

then the pressure pushing the bullet down the barrel also forces the brass case rearward against the bolt face re-seating the primer into the pocket

now the primer is showing symptoms of high pressure but in reality (maybe) it due to excessive cartridge headspace

not to be confused with Cartridge Over All Length or OAL which is the measurement of the entire cartridge
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battle rattle

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Reply with quote  #17 
here's the gauge to check your sizing die adjustment w/o using the actual chamber & bolt. the cartridge gauge checks cartridge headspace and OAL

currently out of stock in the MDWS store

https://www.maddogweapons.com/store/p207/.277_Wolverine_Sheridan_Engineering_%22Slot%22_Ammo_Gauge.html


so if you're in a hurry call Sheridan direct i guess, http://www.sheridanengineering.com/index-1.htm

standard gauge

http://www.sheridanengineering.com/images/AG277WLV.jpg

or slotted gauge

http://www.sheridanengineering.com/images/SG277WLV.jpg

click on the pic to expand, see how there's clearance around the neck of the cartridge in the gauge?

that point where the brass is touching the gauge on the shoulder is the head space datum point,
1/2 of the shoulder and the entire neck has nothing to do with headspace
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dmr

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Reply with quote  #18 
thank you very much to all of you for your help and comments.  the ejector roll pin(s) is on the way and even though the piece can be operated with it, i would rather not.  so in the interim i'll apply what y'all said, get some additional tools and wait until the roll pin arrives.  i hate roll pins.  give me a solid pin any day!


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dmr

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Reply with quote  #19 
battle,

thanks for the links, description and visual aids.  really helped to see what is needed and explained it well.  you weren't a teacher were you?

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr
battle,

thanks for the links, description and visual aids.  really helped to see what is needed and explained it well.  you weren't a teacher were you?


The Sheridan slot gauge is the best type of such gauges, but I am personally not a fan of that type of tool.  At best it is a visual aid, which is fine as far as it goes, but I much prefer an actual measurement figure.  That is much more precise and makes it much easier to replicate at some future date (such as when you strip down your dies for cleaning, etc.).  

For that, there is nothing better than the Hornady Headspace Gauge kit.  It comes with 5 standard bushings that cover 98% of extant bottleneck rifle cases, and they also make a blank bushings you can modify yourself for something really out of the norm.  There's only a few tools I consider indispensable on the load bench and that's one of them.

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Hunter Big Jon

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Reply with quote  #21 
I agree with RIF the Sheridan Gage are great after your set up and to use as a spot check but the Hornady gauge set is what you need. The Sheridan Gage is an eyeball thing at best . The Hornady gauge set gives you actual numbers the you can write down and keep track of.
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dmr

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Reply with quote  #22 
currently i have one on order but they are back-ordered (go figure) but due in shortly.  can't wait to get this piece running again.
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dmr

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Reply with quote  #23 
gooday everyone,

got the ejector roll pin the other day and hornady comparitor today and my cases are at 3.273" with the 330 bushing. subtracting the bushing and comparitor give a value of 1.265".  i dropped the powder charge to 18.5 grains of A1680 with a sierra 110 grain bullet and the primers are still flattened---no where near as badly as before but none the less, flattened.
the cases are extracting well but since i am using a brass catcher, i don't know what position.  there is still an issue of feeding from the magazine.  the magazine is a new magpul 30 round.  i can hand cycle with no problems.  i think the feeding issues may be due to, what i call, the new gun phenomenon.  once it is broken in, it should feed well.   going to load five more and drop the powder charge to 18.0 grains of a1680 and see what that yields.
 
the one positive i got today, is my wife was over the top shooting this rifle and wants her own--but of course in a different calibre. looking at possibly the .25-45 sharps for her (nudge, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, wink).

thanks again to all of you for your insight and direction.  if anyone thinks i am still off-base with my brass dimensions or i am doing to remedy, please feel free to re-direct.

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wikster1983

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr
>the one positive i got today, is my wife was over the top shooting this rifle and wants her own--but of course in a different calibre. looking at possibly the .25-45 sharps for her (nudge, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, wink)

The .257 Ocelot has better bullet slection and speed compared to 25-45 sharps. Works pretty well on deer and varmints too.

- can you take pics of primers in brass before and after firing, sometimes it helps.

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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr
gooday everyone,

got the ejector roll pin the other day and hornady comparitor today and my cases are at 3.273" with the 330 bushing. subtracting the bushing and comparitor give a value of 1.265".  i dropped the powder charge to 18.5 grains of A1680 with a sierra 110 grain bullet and the primers are still flattened---no where near as badly as before but none the less, flattened.
the cases are extracting well but since i am using a brass catcher, i don't know what position.  there is still an issue of feeding from the magazine.  the magazine is a new magpul 30 round.  i can hand cycle with no problems.  i think the feeding issues may be due to, what i call, the new gun phenomenon.  once it is broken in, it should feed well.   going to load five more and drop the powder charge to 18.0 grains of a1680 and see what that yields.
 
the one positive i got today, is my wife was over the top shooting this rifle and wants her own--but of course in a different calibre. looking at possibly the .25-45 sharps for her (nudge, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, wink).

thanks again to all of you for your insight and direction.  if anyone thinks i am still off-base with my brass dimensions or i am doing to remedy, please feel free to re-direct.



if your fired  cases measure 1.265 then make sure your new brass is 1.260 to make sure they fit the chamber. that will help with chambering and probably extracting. 

just to check mag issue if you have any other mags. i would try them there are very few reports of magazine issues with the wolverine.

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