Modern Sporting Rifle Evolution
Sign up Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 17 of 18     «   Prev   14   15   16   17   18   Next
bedlamite

MSR Enthusiast
Registered:
Posts: 105
Reply with quote  #401 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwtharpe
Thats going to be a nice rig BED. 
What is included in that 9 3/4lb.?  seems heavy for just the upper. 

Thanks, that's everything except the ammo, and I popped in an empty 10 round mag to weigh it. The lower has an A2 stock and Jewell trigger set to 26oz.
0
mnwhiskeyman

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 67
Reply with quote  #402 
anyone that can help with starting to reload this cal? would be very grateful
step by step for a stupid first timer would be great. I already re sized the cases no prob.
this is the problem now.

cal pic 2.JPG 

0
BIGGDAWG

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 3,425
Reply with quote  #403 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnwhiskeyman
anyone that can help with starting to reload this cal? would be very grateful
step by step for a stupid first timer would be great. I already re sized the cases no prob.
this is the problem now. 
Looks to me like your seater die is set wrong.

here is what i do, just made 400 last night.

set die to just touch shell holder if you have the hornady head space kit i use the 330 adapter and set the shoulder at 1.422 +/- .001. I lube the case and run in the die.

next i trim to 1.695.

now i clean them to get lube off

next i prime the cases and set up the seat die. you do this by putting a case in the shell holder and raise the ram now back the seating stem out most of the way and  start screwing your die in until you feel resistance. now back the die out 1.5 turns and lock down. 

now seat a bullet and turn the seating stem down till you get the desired oal.  you are done, no need to crimp.


__________________
http://www.7mmvalkyrie.com

0
mnwhiskeyman

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 67
Reply with quote  #404 
alright thank you that seems right I will try tonight
thank you
0
jwtharpe

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,369
Reply with quote  #405 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnwhiskeyman
alright thank you that seems right I will try tonight
thank you

Did you get it working?  
I thought of something that might be causing your problem. 
The seating stem might be coming out of the case sleeve when you start the bullet and case into the die. If this happens the sleeve can't slide up in the die body because the stem gets jammed between the sleeve and adjusting screw causing all kinds of curse words and damage to your bullets and brass. Hornady seaters are sometimes finicky.

0
mnwhiskeyman

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 67
Reply with quote  #406 
got it working bros. I plan on hitting the range this weekend.
My question for the group. I have attended a couple matches. One a 600yard match and one an F Class open at 600 yards. I am wondering if anyone has stretched this round out that far? Most of the guys in the 600 yard prone were using modified ar15s 5.56 77 gr. so I am assuming this should be gtg for that range as well with a flatter round. Thoughts, experiences?
thanks
0
MDWS

Avatar / Picture

ADMINISTRATOR
Registered:
Posts: 5,668
Reply with quote  #407 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnwhiskeyman
got it working bros. I plan on hitting the range this weekend.
My question for the group. I have attended a couple matches. One a 600yard match and one an F Class open at 600 yards. I am wondering if anyone has stretched this round out that far? Most of the guys in the 600 yard prone were using modified ar15s 5.56 77 gr. so I am assuming this should be gtg for that range as well with a flatter round. Thoughts, experiences?
thanks


If you've got your DOPE set, you should be able to keep up with them just fine, especially with that bullet.

__________________

Don't mistake kindness for weakness...

We are charged with upholding the constitution, from all threats, foreign or domestic, and we will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.

-Mark
0
kdbarker

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 562
Reply with quote  #408 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnwhiskeyman
got it working bros. I plan on hitting the range this weekend.
My question for the group. I have attended a couple matches. One a 600yard match and one an F Class open at 600 yards. I am wondering if anyone has stretched this round out that far? Most of the guys in the 600 yard prone were using modified ar15s 5.56 77 gr. so I am assuming this should be gtg for that range as well with a flatter round. Thoughts, experiences?
thanks


I have had real good experience shooting at my local modified F-Class matches at 300 yards with 70grTNT and 85grSGK bullets with the Mongoose... and I'm only using an 18" barrel. I would regularly shoot higher scores than some of the guys with "purpose built" match rifles.
It was easy to work up loads for the Mongoose to shoot accurately for this purpose even with "hunting" bullets. I can only imagine what this round is capable of with some time and attention to develop match loads.

Here is one of the 6X5 targets I did at 300 yards... not my best day, as I was chasing some strong wind all around but you get the idea.

9-21-16 300yd score.jpg 

9-21-16 300yrd range.jpg 



__________________

Firearms Instructor Certification and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor. Background in Gunsmithing/Armorer, and Shooting Range Development and Management.
"Where there is no counsel, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety"...

 

0
mnwhiskeyman

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 67
Reply with quote  #409 
What loads are u running on the 70tnt ???
I will be doing 600 yard targets at 300 this winter! I am looking forward to it!!
0
bedlamite

MSR Enthusiast
Registered:
Posts: 105
Reply with quote  #410 

Just picked up a bag of Nosler 105gr RDF from SPS, Ogive length looks like .620 which means these might work in the mongoose with cut mags. Not sure about freebore, I haven't had a chance to check with the bullet comparator yet. They definitely have a shorter ogive than the 95 SMK, and Nosler claims a BC of 0.571 G1 / 0.280 G7. If it works this could be the long range solution.
0
mnwhiskeyman

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 67
Reply with quote  #411 
let me know how it goes, I had a heck of a time with the 105 amax in mine, but my cases are wrong
0
kdbarker

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 562
Reply with quote  #412 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnwhiskeyman
What loads are u running on the 70tnt ??? I will be doing 600 yard targets at 300 this winter! I am looking forward to it!!


Sorry for the late reply!
I used the 70grTNT over 27gr of Benchmark and CCI SRP BR-4 primers.

70grTNT FPS 9-6-16 BRANDED.jpg  


Elfster 6X5 score 9-17-16 Mongoose.jpg 


__________________

Firearms Instructor Certification and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor. Background in Gunsmithing/Armorer, and Shooting Range Development and Management.
"Where there is no counsel, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety"...

 

0
mnwhiskeyman

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 67
Reply with quote  #413 
Anyone have any issues with brass below 1.690
0
BIGGDAWG

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 3,425
Reply with quote  #414 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnwhiskeyman
Anyone have any issues with brass below 1.690

shorter cases shouldn't cause any issues

__________________
http://www.7mmvalkyrie.com

0
mnwhiskeyman

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 67
Reply with quote  #415 
That is what I thought I think the biggest issue with this wildcat is the shoulder
0
lizARdman15

Gold Contributor
Registered:
Posts: 591
Reply with quote  #416 
Every time I come to the website, I see something about the Mongoose near the top of the recent posts.
The round intrigues me, but I am confused.
It is based of the .223 case, but it is in the AR10 category.
Why? Is it the OAL being over 2.26"?

I really think I would like a 6mm cat, but in the AR15.

Am I misreading something?
0
BIGGDAWG

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 3,425
Reply with quote  #417 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lizARdman15
Every time I come to the website, I see something about the Mongoose near the top of the recent posts.
The round intrigues me, but I am confused.
It is based of the .223 case, but it is in the AR10 category.
Why? Is it the OAL being over 2.26"?

I really think I would like a 6mm cat, but in the AR15.

Am I misreading something?


the mongoose is ar15 off the 223 case, will have to check into it  looks like the mongoose is in it's own catagory.

__________________
http://www.7mmvalkyrie.com

0
RangerJoe

Avatar / Picture

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 4,620
Reply with quote  #418 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lizARdman15
Every time I come to the website, I see something about the Mongoose near the top of the recent posts.
The round intrigues me, but I am confused.
It is based of the .223 case, but it is in the AR10 category.
Why? Is it the OAL being over 2.26"?

I really think I would like a 6mm cat, but in the AR15.

Am I misreading something?
http://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/6mm-mongoose-specs-and-info-8184656?pid=1292910070

What gives the Mongoose it's nasty bite is the improved case.  While based on the 5.56x45mm (.223 Rem), the Mongoose is a bit shorter (~2.5mm), has less body taper, a sharper shoulder, and shorter neck.  All these add up to greater internal case capacity than the parent case - despite being shorter.  The shorter case allows reasonably heavy (hunting weight) bullets to be seated at correct lengths keeping the ogive out of the case mouth and not consuming much powder capacity... all within the normal AR15 magazine OAL.  Lighter bullets in the 55-80gr range are screamers.

I'm not slamming any other cartridge... I own a 6x45 AR that I built around 1982 (+/-). It never performed up to my expectations, especially with bullets over 90gr.  The Mongoose addresses those shortcomings and is a "better mousetrap". 

__________________
Sua Sponte | Ranger Joe
0
Tokarev

Avatar / Picture

MSR Enthusiast
Registered:
Posts: 220
Reply with quote  #419 
Hey! New guy here and I'm interested in the Mongoose. My interest is from the SBR side of things and I'm looking for a cartridge that provides some decent ballistics from a 10-12in barrel. Am I barking up the wrong tree?
0
Dogtired

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #420 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokarev
Hey! New guy here and I'm interested in the Mongoose. My interest is from the SBR side of things and I'm looking for a cartridge that provides some decent ballistics from a 10-12in barrel. Am I barking up the wrong tree?


In a word, yes. The Mongoose benefits from a long barrel because it uses slow burning powder.

The 300 Blackout uses H110 or similar powders--ones used for pistols or 410 Shotguns. It burns all.of it's powder inside the 1st 8.5-10" of barrel, meaning it delivers about 85% or so of its potential velocity and energy from an SBR.

The Mongoose seems to me would be like a 223/556 in an SBR--a giant flamethrower with anemic results as a good deal of powder burns off AFTER it leaves the barrel. Try to shoot either in your house at an intruder and you are likely to set both him and your house on fire.

Haven't looked into the loads, but I SUSPECT that the 277 Wolverine would perform more like a 300 Blackout. Check the powders. If people are getting the best results with fast burning powders, it will do better as an SBR than the Mongoose, on my opinion.

I had a 10" 300BO pistol that was flat shooting and devestating on deer out to AT LEAST 100 yards and never once saw a massive flame leap from the barrel. I switched to a 16" to get all the performance I could (since I don't shoot suppressed, and couldn't be happier. There's not really much if any velocity to be gained with a longer barrel, since, well, there's nothing still burning in that last 6". I miss that gun...

The Wolverine benefits from barrels up yo 18-20" from what it appears. You might be able to tweak the loads with different powders, especially if shooting subsonic, but I admit, I am swimming in waters over.my head when discussing that round [wink]
0
Rifter

Avatar / Picture

First 50
Registered:
Posts: 1,219
Reply with quote  #421 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogtired
In a word, yes. The Mongoose benefits from a long barrel because it uses slow burning powder. The 300 Blackout uses H110 or similar powders--ones used for pistols or 410 Shotguns. It burns all.of it's powder inside the 1st 8.5-10" of barrel, meaning it delivers about 85% or so of its potential velocity and energy from an SBR. The Mongoose seems to me would be like a 223/556 in an SBR--a giant flamethrower with anemic results as a good deal of powder burns off AFTER it leaves the barrel. Try to shoot either in your house at an intruder and you are likely to set both him and your house on fire. Haven't looked into the loads, but I SUSPECT that the 277 Wolverine would perform more like a 300 Blackout. Check the powders. If people are getting the best results with fast burning powders, it will do better as an SBR than the Mongoose, on my opinion. I had a 10" 300BO pistol that was flat shooting and devestating on deer out to AT LEAST 100 yards and never once saw a massive flame leap from the barrel. I switched to a 16" to get all the performance I could (since I don't shoot suppressed, and couldn't be happier. There's not really much if any velocity to be gained with a longer barrel, since, well, there's nothing still burning in that last 6". I miss that gun... The Wolverine benefits from barrels up yo 18-20" from what it appears. You might be able to tweak the loads with different powders, especially if shooting subsonic, but I admit, I am swimming in waters over.my head when discussing that round [wink]



You have to compare things in context.  First, the .300 was originally designed to push heavy for caliber bullets at subsonic speeds in short barrels.  Supersonic loads didn't come along until people discovered they couldn't afford (or own in many cases) a suppressor.  It is essentially the same as a straight wall round, so the powders that work have to be very fast.

The Mongoose was designed to push heavier .244 bullets at longer ranges and to work for varmints and even deer, and its a bottleneck case.  That's why it uses slower powders, and requires a longer barrel.  It does that exceedingly well.

The Wolverine also was intended to beat the 5.56 over the same ranges with heavier bullets and more energy.  The 6.8 was designed to be optimum in a 16" barrel, and the Wolverine is, if anything, more efficient.  But being a smaller case, it can also work in the subsonic realm very well.  Unlike the .300, it gives up nothing in performance at either end of the subsonic/supersonic range.

Another issue with the .300 shows up when you go supersonic.  The chamber was designed to handle big fat, heavy bullets like the 208 and 220 gr.  That means a long throat, and a short case (less powder) to seat the bullets correctly, and still fit in the magazine.  When you change over to 110 and 125 gr. bullets you have an excessive amount of leade in the chamber and that have a big effect on accuracy.  I've read tests that show that.

Bottom line is, you can compare similar rounds like 6mm Mongoose, .25x45, .277 Wolverine, but the .300 should be in a class by itself due to its design origins.  The larger rounds like the 6.8 should also be in their own class due to size of the case.  And, one last thing on powder burning.  All of these rounds, if loaded correctly, burn their powders charges in the first six inches or so of the barrel.  So the muzzle blast is dependent on barrel length only to the extent that the gas is still pushing due to expansion pressure.  Make the barrel longer and the pressure starts to fall off, so you get less muzzle blast, not because powder is still burning.

__________________
Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice.  Barry Goldwater
When Injustice becomes Law, Resistance becomes Duty.  Thomas Jefferson
NRA Benefactor Life Member
ISRA member
0
Dogtired

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 86
Reply with quote  #422 
Well, glad I didn't read those articles or my Blackouts might not have shot sub MOA (or my buddy's gun for that matter. With 110gr Barnes or 125gr Nosler BTs, we have highly accurate deer rounds that we've been routinely killing deer with out to about 200 yards, give or take.

Actually, the Blackout was designed SPECIFICALLY from the ground up to run both sub and supersonic rounds, giving a shooter different applications from the same gun while delivering more energy downrange than the 556, from what I recall. I don't remember anything that implies the supersonic application was dreamt u0mpost facto

As for powders, while it is true that MOST of the powder burns in the first few inches of barrel, the actual length ut takes varies from powder to powder and application to application. It is also true that there is anywhere between 5-15% or more of the powder that doesn't burn in that first few inches, but continues to burn down the barrel. While this residual piwder may not contribute to overall pressure or velocity in any really meaningful way, it CAN SIGNIFICANTLY contribute to muzzle blast.

For instance, I have a beautiful Marlin XLR 30-30 lever action rifle that was optimized for the Leverevolution line of ammo, which uses a proprietary spherical powder that is also now for sale to reloaders amd turns out to be a very slow burning powder (perfect for the 6.5 Grendel and, I would hazard to guess, the Mongoose as well.

In my 24" XLR 30-30, the ammo handles like a dream! I get fast velocities and flat trajectories. I decided one year to go the other extreme and bought a Marlin 30-30 in Stainless with a laminate stock (to match the XLR) but with a 16" barrel. Since the Leverevolution shot so wonderfully in the XLR, I figured I'd give it a go in the 16" gun too.

The results were terrible! No clue how accurate the ammo was. Why? Because I couldn't see the target through the massive fireball created by the slow burning powder that was still igniting. I know muzzle flash is a complex phenomenon that involves far more than powder burning as it exits. That said, itmis not true that all powder of all burn rates burns fully in the same length of barrel.

I was a little too flippant on that point in my initial post (and admittedly a little more ignorant than I prefer to be [wink] ). However, burn rates of powder DO factor in with rifles, ESPECIALLY when we are talking about going from a barrel that is normally 18-24 inches and cutting it down to a 6-12" barrel. Quite simply, you will have more residual still-burning powder flaming out the end of an 8" barrel (let's split the difference) with a slow-burning powder than you will with a fast burning one.

Of course, cartridge design and caliber also come into play here. And this is where I think the 223/556 analogy would be more productive than the 300 due to a more similarly sized bullet and case. Every person I know that owns a 556 pistol and every post I have read and video I have seen warns about these suckers being flamethrowers. Seems that the 556 and Mongoose seem to have some overlap in powder choice, so I would expect similar results if you tried to turn a Mongoose into a short barreled rifle or an AR pistol.

The primary benefit of rounds like the 556 or Mongoose, are that the slow burning gases can generate the pressures needed to accelerate the long, slender projectiles further along the barrel, giving you massive increases of speed without blowing up your rifle. Use those same powders in a 300 Blackout style application (and I fall back to this one since I know it better) and those expanding gasses might build up behind the broader, heavier base of the projectile, causing massively dangerous pressure levels to build before it can can the bullet moving, potentially resulting in a receiver blowing up.

With the Blackout, you can use a fast burning powder that not only burns virtually 100% of the powder with both lightweight and heavy bullets (based on what I've seen), but it also gets you about 80% of your acceleration in 10" of barrel. Because it's fast burning, you won't get those pressures sustained over a longer length of barrel, meaning 16" is about as long as you will ever need to realize the full potential of your velocity

That also means that rounds like the 556 (and, I'd wager, the Mongoose) become fairly anemic once you start cutting them down I believe the 556 is OPTIMIZED for a 24-26" barrel, much like the Mongoose. Every inch costs you something like 22-30fps of muzzle velocity. Cut 20" off the top speed you can get and it adds up fast. Feom the experiments I've read, switching from a 26-6" barrel costs you about 800-1200 fps depending on ammo. No clue what those numbers are with the Mongoose but I suspect it's similar. Granted, you aren't shooting long ranges with an SBR, but a 55gr bullet traveling at 3200 fps has a LOT more energy and one travelling at 2100 fps.

Every round is different. Straight vs tapered cases, bottlenecks or steep angles, long vs shortmfor weight bullets, bullet diameter, etc, etc.

I still feel that the Mongoose loses far more. Than it gains for an SBR application. It was destined to excel at long ranges delivering a lot of energy down range. If you really want something to run as an SBR, look at the Blackout, the Wolverine, the 458 SOCOM, or any of the eother purpose-built rounds designed to maximize your SBR performance.

You CAN turn the Mongoose into an SBR, but what would be the benefit over a Blackout, SOCOM, Wolverine or others? Seems like a pricey way to build a rifle that won't do anything particularly better than other guns would for less cost to build and run.

That's my two bits.

Below was an interesting discussion I found on powder and how it burns. There's no simple answers, despite my initial attempts to make it such.

https://www.shootersforum.com/ballistics-internal-external/77312-burn-rate-barrel-length.html
0
JoshD

Avatar / Picture

Member
Registered:
Posts: 29
Reply with quote  #423 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bedlamite

Just picked up a bag of Nosler 105gr RDF from SPS, Ogive length looks like .620 which means these might work in the mongoose with cut mags. Not sure about freebore, I haven't had a chance to check with the bullet comparator yet. They definitely have a shorter ogive than the 95 SMK, and Nosler claims a BC of 0.571 G1 / 0.280 G7. If it works this could be the long range solution.


But if a late reply but thought I'd chime in. The 105Amax, for me, are working fantastic! I will try and get some target uploads and data posted in the group data. My speeds are about 2550 with my current load, and I feel I have found my accuracy node. I was able to squeeze some more speed but groups started getting wild. Got them dialed for long range and loving the results. I have tried the RDFs and the accuracy is good, but they fall into the same category as the nosler CCs, they are too long for mag feed. This, for me, is a deal breaker. If I wanted to shoot single feed, I would grab my bolt gun. However, I know this is a personal preference. The Amax I am running at max mod mag length, 2.370 unless I'm mistaken. When I say max, I mean tips are scraping the mag well, but have zero feeding issues. I will say the RDF platform is outstanding, I am using the 140gr RDF In my creedmoor and love them. But for the application and platform of the Mongoose, I will continue to use the amax. Just my .02c.
0
mnwhiskeyman

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 67
Reply with quote  #424 
very interested in your load data for the 105s bro
also what barrel length you using
I have an 18inch and have yet to use the 105s successfully. However I would really like to try them for 600 yard work
0
JoshD

Avatar / Picture

Member
Registered:
Posts: 29
Reply with quote  #425 
I am running a 1:8 twist 24" bull barrel. I went with this barrel for my long range game. I've kicked around the idea of ordering an 18" or 16" for some shorter shots and packing around. I've tried a few powders and have gotten varied results. I landed on ARcomp, I need to submit my data to the xcel file, MODS, is that something I can do or is one person I charge? Sorry for the dumb question. The initial load dev speed data was for 5 shots at the given load and at 2.370 OAL. Speeds were 2525-2532. I have gotten faster loads but accuracy suffered horribly. With this speed i am well able to make 1000yds. So far I'm only half that. Admittedly I only have one picture and haven't been to the range in a while, I'm itching. This was taken during development and crosswinds were 15-35mph. Had a hard time reading and waiting in the wind that day. One was a wind blown flier but not a bad grouping. I'm getting better.

Attached Images
jpeg IMG_1813.JPG (448.39 KB, 19 views)

0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.