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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #1 
Loaded some cartridges for first ladder test, tell me what you think. I'm going shooting early next week. And I want to come back[biggrin]
90gr Speer TNT HP (because I had them already)
Federal FC brass
CCI 400 primers
2.220 COAL
Hodgdon CFE BLK
Ladder starts with 23gr, then 23.3, 23.6, 23.9, 24.2, 24.5

I'm new to making up my own loads, although I've reloaded before. Based on the little bit of info from others on this forum these should be safe loads in CFE BLK. They were shooting 100gr and I'm only shooting 90gr so I have that on my side as well. You guys tell me what you think.


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wikster1983

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Reply with quote  #2 
I don't think you will have any problems with those loads, but I think the cci 400 primers might show pressure signs earlier than cci 450. They will work though, but you may want to try some magnum primers some time. People seem to really like the tnt for accuracy, and cfeblk seems to be working well for others who have tried it. Have fun!
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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #3 
I'm planning on getting some 41s, but its a bit of a drive to the shop that has them. I had the 400 here.
Thanks for the input.

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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbrownfield
Loaded some cartridges for first ladder test, tell me what you think. I'm going shooting early next week. And I want to come back[biggrin]
90gr Speer TNT HP (because I had them already)
Federal FC brass
CCI 400 primers
2.220 COAL
Hodgdon CFE BLK
Ladder starts with 23gr, then 23.3, 23.6, 23.9, 24.2, 24.5

I'm new to making up my own loads, although I've reloaded before. Based on the little bit of info from others on this forum these should be safe loads in CFE BLK. They were shooting 100gr and I'm only shooting 90gr so I have that on my side as well. You guys tell me what you think.



Think im gonna follow your lead and try this ladder as my beginning point for my new 277wlv. I cant find 1680 anywhere, but a local shop had plenty of this stuff.

Does anyone know where the load would begin for 85gr pills? I got some 85gr MPG pills on order, and i hope to interchange that load (with some tweeks) with the 85gr E tip for hunting.

ive been in the reloading game for a long time but this is my first true wildcat outside of ackleys. Ide assume the difference of 5gns would be very little and could start at 23.5gn and end at 25?

Thoughts?
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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airaddict
Think im gonna follow your lead and try this ladder as my beginning point for my new 277wlv. I cant find 1680 anywhere, but a local shop had plenty of this stuff. Does anyone know where the load would begin for 85gr pills? I got some 85gr MPG pills on order, and i hope to interchange that load (with some tweeks) with the 85gr E tip for hunting. ive been in the reloading game for a long time but this is my first true wildcat outside of ackleys. Ide assume the difference of 5gns would be very little and could start at 23.5gn and end at 25? Thoughts?


the 85 lead free bullets you can use the 90 grain standard bullet data as a starting point you will max about the same. 

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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #6 
You should not experience any problems at 85gr bullets with loads up to 25gr- anything more runs into excessive primer flattening and powder compression issues. I have gone to 25gr CFE BLK at 2.220 COAL with #41 primers and have gotten 2610 fps with 90gr TNT bullets. Your results may vary...
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Bajabusdoc

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Bruce, good you are up and running! So how far off was your headspace, you were worried about it? I have had good luck with 41s they will tell you if your headspace is off as light strike won't ignite. As Moleman pointed out to me on straight cases they do not show pressure signs , however on cases with a shoulder they do.
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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #8 
Headspace was a little tight on the first group, but no issues besides 4 FTE in 35 shots. Those were all FC brass undergoing fire forming. The second group included some of your LC brass, backed die off to give .004 short and had no failures whatsoever. Your brass was about .009 short but performed well.
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Rifter

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Reply with quote  #9 
The 90 gr bullets can all be driven to 2700+ with the right powders.  We've tried 5744, 1200R, 2200, 1680, Blackout.  All work, but by far the best is Shooter's World Blackout.  It is similar to 1680, charge for charge, but generally gives slightly higher velocity and slightly less pressure, and excellent accuracy.  CFE BLK seems to me to be somewhat erratic, but it hasn't been tested nearly as much as those others.

All of those top loads require the use of mag primers like #450, and #41.  The cups are 25% thicker than on the #400 primer, thus will handle 60k psi without problems.  I would also adjust your sizer for no more than .003" shoulder bump to maximize case life.  I've got a large batch of LC brass that has at least 5 reloads after forming, and not one has required trimming.


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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #10 
I cant find 1680 to save my life right now. No one seems to want to carry That brand of powder.

Since i found a good source of cfe blk, ill make use of it and get yall some load data with 85s and 90s. No use beating that 1680 horse some moar since theres a plethora of solid data for it already.

Im gonna have to play with the shoulder bump thing cuz ive never done that before. I have either FL resized as normal or neck sized for my bolt rifles. Luckily i have a case guage so ill fiddle with it and get the hang of it.
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Rifter

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airaddict
I cant find 1680 to save my life right now. No one seems to want to carry That brand of powder. Since i found a good source of cfe blk, ill make use of it and get yall some load data with 85s and 90s. No use beating that 1680 horse some moar since theres a plethora of solid data for it already. Im gonna have to play with the shoulder bump thing cuz ive never done that before. I have either FL resized as normal or neck sized for my bolt rifles. Luckily i have a case guage so ill fiddle with it and get the hang of it.



The best tool for setting the sizer is the Hornady Headspace Gauge kit.  Makes it stupid simple.  But, you can blacksmith it as well.  Find a pistol case (or a bushing at the hardware store) that the case mouth hits the shoulder area when you drop it over the top of the case.  Measure the case with the pistol case in place.  Save the pistol case, and size those cases.  Measure them again, and the difference is how far you've set the shoulder back.  As long as you use the same case/bushing each time, everything is based on the same reference point.


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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #12 
Not gonna lie....^ this just blew my mind.

Ive been putting off the headspace guage from hornady because i didnt want to spend money on something i would prob use very little. Now that you mention a pistol case or bushing, i think ill look for a 357 case i got stashed away. Free beats $30+ anyday. I know a bushing from lowes would be more robust and still super cheap.

Thanks for the knowledge!
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Rifter

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airaddict
Not gonna lie....^ this just blew my mind. Ive been putting off the headspace guage from hornady because i didnt want to spend money on something i would prob use very little. Now that you mention a pistol case or bushing, i think ill look for a 357 case i got stashed away. Free beats $30+ anyday. I know a bushing from lowes would be more robust and still super cheap. Thanks for the knowledge!



I would not recommend the blacksmith method as a permanent solution.  I've bought a lot of reloading tools over the years, but the Hornady Headspace gauge is the best money I've ever spent on tooling other than a die set.  If you're gonna do it on the cheap, take a case to Lowes or Menards or Home Depot and try bushings until you find one that matches the midpoint of the shoulder diameter wise.  That way your reading will have the most relevance to what others are seeing.  The Hornady bushings are all stamped with a specific ID measurement, and a letter code.  Each code corresponds to a family of cartridges that match up with the ID measurement.  Even if you forget the diameter, the letter code will tell you at a glance what family it is.

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Nomadic

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Reply with quote  #14 
Rifter- What Hornady gauge insert are you using?
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Rifter

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadic
Rifter- What Hornady gauge insert are you using?



The correct bushing for the Wolverine is the 'A .330' bushing.  The 'B' is correct for 6.8 SPC.


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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #16 
Alright, im headed to my gun club tomorrow morning for a competition shoot and to get the first shots out of the 277wlv. Its wearing a stainless 16" 11twist barrel and middy gas. its got those purdy spiral flutes.

I loaded up a ladder of 50 rds of 90gn TNTs using CFE BLK. Starting at 23gn and ending at 24.9 in .3gn increments. The two groups over 25gn are in .2 gn increments at 25.1 & 25.3. I plan to single load these and watch for pressure signs. If they are too warm to be safe, ill save them and pull them when i get home. I wouldnt call them quite fully compressed, but there was no room for more without it being compressed.

Full data and groups will be posted once i get home tomorrow.

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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #17 
Ok, heres the data.

90grTNT- coal- 1.220" - light crimp
FC brass
Trim length- 1.530"
CCI 450 primer
CFE BLK powder

23gn- 2619, 2574, 2553, 2578, 2582
Avg. 2581 / SD- 24
23.3gn- 2606, 2551, 2618, 2610, 2596
Avg. 2589 / SD- 27
23.6gn- 2582, 2567, 2612, 2577, 2596
Avg. 2581 / SD- 18
23.9gn- 2632, 2628, 2645, 2628, 2611
Avg. 2628 / SD- 12
24.2gn- 2639, 2589, 2626, err, err
Avg. 2618 / SD. 26
24.5gn- 2700, 2686, 2683, 2690, 2722
Avg. 2696 / SD. 16
24.8gn- 2835, 2750, 2744, 2734, 2732
Avg. 2759 / SD. 38
25.1gn- 2804, err, 2803, err, 2808
Avg. 2805 / SD. 4
25.3gn- 2809, 2785, 2793, 2798, 2763
Avg. 2789 / SD. 17

24gn sighters- 2640, 2666, 2686, 2687, 2662
Avg. 2668 / SD. 17

Rifle shot good with Decent accuracy but i had a few hiccups because i only have a 4 7/8oz buffer i use for my 300blk upper, ill need a plain carbine buffer for this upper. Multiple short strokes cuz of the buffer above 24.8gn, and FTF below that mark.

Even with the adj GB full open and necks denting on the deflector, the BCG still wouldnt lock to the rear. Above 24.8gn, I experienced hard extractions after firing where the carrier would barely unlock out of battery and get stuck. It took a light pry from a screw driver on the carrier to loosen it. I assume the brass may be to snug in the chamber and sticking.

The lower ladder made the brass really dirty, and it didnt fully seal till after 24.5gn. Could that be the first sign of excess pressure? The case sticking to the chamber causing the carrier to jam with the case in the chamber still?
Below 24.8gn, the brass would eject perfectly at maybe 4 oclock and a good 4-5 feet away, but wouldnt pick up another round. The few rounds that did eject above 24.5gn did so to 1oclock and right off the edge of the table.

Ill upload pics of the groups and brass shortly. There are no visible pressure signs above 25gn, but with the trouble i was having with the carrier jamming, i would prob try to stick closer to 24.5gn.
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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #18 
First pic is every group i shot today. Each circle is 3", inner circles are 1" and 2". Center is .5"

Second is a pic of the primers. They are in order from top left going down each row towards the right. The last set on bottom right are my sighters.

Third is a piece of brass from every string in the ladder except for sighters. As you cab see, they get less dirty as the charges increased.

Fourth is a closeup of two pieces of brass from the 24.5 string. If you look closely you can see a black ring around the base of the shoulder. I assume thats where the rounds were jamming the carrier inside the chamber.

Attached Images
jpeg IMG_7538.JPG (493.89 KB, 25 views)
jpeg IMG_7539.JPG (355.06 KB, 22 views)
jpeg IMG_7540.JPG (549.60 KB, 19 views)
jpeg IMG_7541.JPG (278.55 KB, 14 views)

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Dwb

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Reply with quote  #19 
From looking at your groups the 24.2 gr and 23 gr loads are your best loads and I would call the 24.5 gr. load your max. Are you sizing your brass about three thousands smaller then your fired cases? If you sized your brass right then those two loads are pretty good, you may can improve your loads a little by changing you oal otherwise everything looks good to me.
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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #20 
These cases are the first firing after forming. Im gonna suck it up and buy the hornady guage to have tighter control on shoulder bump and hopefully the next firing will be smoother. Ive never really cared about the bump before, i would just run cases into the resizing die according to instructions and call it a day.
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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #21 
You can check the barrel headspace using either the gage or the blacksmith method on your fired cases. Just compare the fired case to a sized case and adjust your dies accordingly. For first firing after forming, you want a finished case that is within .001 short, to equal to, that headspace. Cases should be full length 1.530 max- and some of them might FTE. Your loads after that original one should have the dies sized .003 short and should run through without failures.
CFE BLK is pretty inconsistent as far as chrono results go, so no surprise there. Don't know why...Your accuracy will be affected by the large spread in FPS as well. Try around the smallest spread for most accurate loads.

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Rifter

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airaddict
These cases are the first firing after forming. Im gonna suck it up and buy the hornady guage to have tighter control on shoulder bump and hopefully the next firing will be smoother. Ive never really cared about the bump before, i would just run cases into the resizing die according to instructions and call it a day.


Fireforming loads generally don't give the best accuracy, and since some of the energy is taken up in forming the case, erratic velocity to some extent.  Run your ladder again, same charges, with proper bump sizing, and you'll likely get a more defined result.

You said you were mostly getting 4 o'clock ejection so your gas system is probably OK where its set.  If you're still getting short stroking and no lock back, then its most likely from something slowing the BC down, and not from load issues.  Did you scrub the barrel and chamber well when you put it all together?  Put some Flitz on a mop and polish the chamber a bit, carefully.

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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #23 
I went ahead and bought the headspace comparator and checked my fired cases yesterday. There was about a 3thou diff in measurement between the lowest charge and the highest charge on the ladder. Lowest was 1.253" and highest was 1.256".

My unfired cases measure right around 1.244-46. So if i understand the process right, i should be shooting for a bump to around 1.250"?

i read about the cases shrinking after first firing, and shrink they did. All are under 1.530" now. None are below 1.520".
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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifter


Fireforming loads generally don't give the best accuracy, and since some of the energy is taken up in forming the case, erratic velocity to some extent.  Run your ladder again, same charges, with proper bump sizing, and you'll likely get a more defined result.

You said you were mostly getting 4 o'clock ejection so your gas system is probably OK where its set.  If you're still getting short stroking and no lock back, then its most likely from something slowing the BC down, and not from load issues.  Did you scrub the barrel and chamber well when you put it all together?  Put some Flitz on a mop and polish the chamber a bit, carefully.


I attribute the short stroke and FTE and FTF solely on the buffer. Its a hair under 5oz for my 300blk and i know its way to heavy for the 277. I gotta wait for the next gunshow to pick a reg buffer. Always helps to have an excuse to go to give the wife. Ha.

This barreled upper was picked up off someone unfired. All i did was run a few patches of CLP through it to make sure no cerakote was left inside the chanber and bore. Many kudos to MDWS on the quality of the bore, the barrel cleaned up super easy. Using butches bore shine, only faint traces of copper were found.
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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #25 
1.250 is a good number.
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