Modern Sporting Rifle Evolution
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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #26 
More data for CFE BLK today.

85gn MPG- FC cases- trim 1.530"- coal 2.160- cci 450
No crimp

22.5g- 2646, 2629, 2583, 2665, 2600
Avg- 2624 / SD-33
22.8g- 2709, 2672, 2645, 2666, 2659
Avg- 2670 / SD-24
23.1g- 2738, 2709, 2701, 2669, 2681
Avg- 2699 / SD-27
23.4g- 2802, 2714, 2779, 2799, 2763
Avg- 2771 / SD-36
23.7g- 2818, 2821, 2789, 2804, 2766
Avg- 2799 / SD-23
24g- 2811, 2791, 2782, 2774, 2777
Avg- 2787 / SD-15
24.2g- 3368, 3336, 3347, 3299, 3330
Avg- 3336 / SD-25(obv chrono error)
24.4g- 2779, 2787, 2754, 2768, 2753
Avg- 2768 / SD-15
24.6g- 2810, 2782, 2760, 2827, 2783
Avg- 2792 / SD-26
24.8g- 3276, err, 3247, 3263, 3263, 3250
Avg- 3258 / SD-12(obv chrono error)

Ignore the 3200fps groups. The sun was hitting my rear sunshade and skewed the numbers.

90gr TNT, FC case, trim 1.530", coal 2.220", cci 450
No crimp

23.8g- 2622, 2588, 2604, 2586, 2600
Avg- 2600 / SD-15
24g- 2636, 2632, 2610, 2590, 2617
Avg- 2617 / SD-19
24.2g- 2667, 2618, 2630, 2630, 2617
Avg- 2632 / SD-20
24.4g- 2670, 2648, 2633, 2623, 2631
Avg- 2641 / SD-19
24.6g- 2743, 2690, 2670, 2682, 2673
Avg- 2691 / SD-30
24.8g- 2732, 2678, 2656, 2667, 2671
Avg- 2680 / SD-30



Finally sorted out the cycling issues right around shooting the 85gn 24.4g group. The 90gn group that came after worked great and cycled the action without problem. Necks are a teeny bit dented, but no where as bad as my 300blk. Brass looked good and no pressure signs on the primers.

Its clear the sweet spot is the 24.5-24.8 range. Im prob gonna settle on 24.6gn and play with seating depth next.

Groups below show it didnt tighten up until inside 24gn range. Couple outstanding groups, but those pesky flyers opened them up. The target stickers are 1".

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jpeg IMG_7546.JPG (194.09 KB, 16 views)

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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #27 
Try dropping the first shot (4-shot group instead of 5) on the last three or four 90gr TNT groups and rerun them. You'll get a much smaller spread.
Nice work.

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #28 
Dropping from 5 shots to 4 would typically produce a lower standard deviation and smaller extreme spread.  Removing 20% of your data samples typically has that effect.  Taken to extreme - one could only fire 1 test shot... the SD, ES, and group size would be zero; that sounds pretty good!  "I had a 0.0" group (center to center) at 600 yards."
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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #29 
Understood. In this case its taking the fouling shot and its much higher FPS than the next  four out of the sample.
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Bajabusdoc

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Reply with quote  #30 
is your 24.6 load compressed? the SD jumps there may be difference in seating pressure affecting compression or neck tension, are you cleaning primer holes? not just the pockets. very consistent climb in AVG velocity with loads. your past experience shows. my first impression with vertical stringing was velocity delta. are you on bipod or rest. for me prone and bipod lateral string is breath control, (or once a rock under right hip I kept shifting subconsciously)
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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bajabusdoc
is your 24.6 load compressed? the SD jumps there may be difference in seating pressure affecting compression or neck tension, are you cleaning primer holes? not just the pockets. very consistent climb in AVG velocity with loads. your past experience shows. my first impression with vertical stringing was velocity delta. are you on bipod or rest. for me prone and bipod lateral string is breath control, (or once a rock under right hip I kept shifting subconsciously)


I wouldnt call the 24.6 load compressed, but merely full with no room for the powder to bounce around once i seated the bullet. Now loads above 25gn were compressed andi had to tap the case lightly to settle the powder below the lower part of the neck.

I didnt do any flash hole deburring, but now that i have some data and the cases sre fireformed, ill prib run back thru them with my reamer and clean them up. I need to do it anyway for some 243 brass im prepping so ill get them all at once.

I only shoot off a table with a front caldwell rest and rear bag. Couple shots could be attributed to barrel flex since it did get a little warm, and tired eyes since i was testimg several rifle loads. I would swap the rifle out with another to keep testimg rolling but give barrels a rest to cool a little.

I did find it interesting what the previous posters noticed that the first shot was higher in velocity than all the others consistently. Didnt catch that.
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Rifter

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airaddict
I wouldnt call the 24.6 load compressed, but merely full with no room for the powder to bounce around once i seated the bullet. Now loads above 25gn were compressed andi had to tap the case lightly to settle the powder below the lower part of the neck. I didnt do any flash hole deburring, but now that i have some data and the cases sre fireformed, ill prib run back thru them with my reamer and clean them up. I need to do it anyway for some 243 brass im prepping so ill get them all at once. I only shoot off a table with a front caldwell rest and rear bag. Couple shots could be attributed to barrel flex since it did get a little warm, and tired eyes since i was testimg several rifle loads. I would swap the rifle out with another to keep testimg rolling but give barrels a rest to cool a little. I did find it interesting what the previous posters noticed that the first shot was higher in velocity than all the others consistently. Didnt catch that.



If you really want to get hard core with testing, then clean the bore after each string, and fire a fouling shot.  I know a lot of guys scrape all the carbon out of primer pockets, and uniform flash holes and all that stuff, but I don't find it anything but a waste of my time.  My approach is somewhat different from many others.

The Wolverine is not a benchrest round, nor is the AR a benchrest rifle.  I limit my case prep to using the same year LC headstamp for load development, and I drop charges from my powder measure and then trickle up for each step above the charge it throws.  I also believe that the AR prefers some bullet jump to take the rifling in terms of accuracy, so I generally seat to the cannelure.  I figure its a hunting/plinking/SD round, so all that benchrest level stuff isn't going to make much of a difference one way or the other.

I concentrate on my load development in terms of finding the pressure limit, and then finding the accuracy node.  Once I've got those nailed down, that's my standard load and it doesn't get tinkered with.  I must be doing something right because all my ARs (Wolverine, Valkyrie, and Yeti) shoot MOA or better that way.  Sometimes when my eyes work really well, I can cut that to 3/4".  I also believe that case sizing has a lot to do with working up accurate loads, and size all to .003" bump.

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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #33 
You and i think alike rifter. I purposefully didnt clean the barrel after each string because i know the AR is not a bench rifle. I need this rifle to prove itself on a dirty and warm bore since its a semi auto and i plan to use it as such.

The reaming of flash holes is typically something i only do on my bolt rifles since they fire a lot less cases per session than an AR And have many less variables to account for. I may ream a couple just to see if theres any diff for shits and giggles. Once i get around to ordering the OAL 277 case guage from MDWS, ill figure out where the throat is and set a proper jump to the rifling.

its the case sizing thats got me in new territory but all yall have been helpful in giving good advice.

Overall, i keep reminding myself to not get caught up in to many details and enjoy shooting the thing! Ha
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Bajabusdoc

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Reply with quote  #34 
I ream the flash holes first time i use a used case. Some of my 556 223 has been sitting in a 3 gal bucket in the corner of the mud room or ammo bag of my son's crown vic. Even though cleaned i have found crusty flash holes. Once in use they stay clean. Just a variable to check.

Once fired in MY rifle i set the shoulder back 3-5 thousands and done. After range throw in my stainless annealing bucket and when half full anneal measure clean and reload. At that point they are a known entity not a scrungy range pick up.

A game my boys and i do is send the fouling shot in to the others target! Its an alibi any way.
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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #35 
I too ream/deburr flash holes (one time only) in 99.9% of my rifle brass... only because I've found flash holes you couldn't pass a 24 GA needle thru.  It only takes another few seconds per case - and probably isn't necessary with 98 out of 100 cases. http://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/making-7-62x40-brass-7815191?&trail=25
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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #36 
Finally finished my load testing with CFE BLK. I settled on 24gn.

For some reason, my rifle does not like 85gn MPG's. The 90 TNT & 85 E-tip did very well.

These are 10 rd groups.

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jpeg IMG_7570.JPG (258.55 KB, 14 views)
jpeg IMG_7571.JPG (271.22 KB, 13 views)

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bbbrownfield

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Reply with quote  #37 
Very nice results. Glad to have been a help...
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Bajabusdoc

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Reply with quote  #38 
very consistent, 3 round group luck, 5 round group rifle, 10 round skill of driver....let us know if you do 110gr  
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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #39 
Thanks Doc. I attribute most of the credit to fastidious handloading (and data keeping) and this barrel from MDWS.

I think i will try the 110 Vmax. Ive had good luck with it in my 243 and 300blk. Besides, the rifle didnt like 1680 with the light bullets, so im hoping ill get better results with some heavies. That pound of powder is just begging to be burned up. Ha.

Once midway has their blemished bulelts on sale again, ill stock up if the 277 bullets are included and start another load development.

I may have mentioned this once before....even when i run the barrel on the very warm side, i do get some copper build up but its always a breeze to clean. Couple cycles of foaming bore cleaner or butches bore shine easily remove any build up. Shows the workmanship put into these barrels to ensure a good product.
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Bajabusdoc

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Reply with quote  #40 
Working with Caveman 20.0 to 20.7 gr 1680. 20.4 seems to be the sweet spot there for 110 hornady and LC brass.
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Airaddict

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Reply with quote  #41 
Thxs for the info. Ill make a note in my 277 load book so i have that for later. Ill prob decrease 10% and work. Once i get close to 21gn, i will switch to .2 increments till i find the pressure limit for my rig.

What kind of velocity was that getting you?
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