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BIGGDAWG

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here is a little write up i have done. i will make changes as needed but it is pretty self explanatory. 

What i have learned is it will take a form die to make the Stinger and the Viper brass  well it is the best way and right way to do it.

this procedure is for using a modified 223 die as the form die but a 222 rem die can also be used in its place with out mods -- we are double checking this but on paper it should work.



How to make 20 Viper brass.

You will need 2 dies to make Viper brass

This is for making Viper brass with modified 223 die for forming die.  A forming die reamer is ordered and in 3 -4 months I will have form dies available they will take the place of the 223  die. Till then this is how to make Viper brass.

1 - 223 sizing die shortened .075.  this die is to form and push the shoulder back so we don’t get crumpled shoulders. Not using it the brass crumples just  under the shoulder see pic. Note a remingtion 222 die should work with no mods we are currently testing this.



[image]

2 – 20 Viper die to bring it down to 20 cal  When forming you use the first die – 223 to get the rounds to chamber then with this die  you just kiss the shoulder don’t try to form it to 40 deg. Basically we are doing like Ackley did with his designs you load standard ammo in and it blows out when firing. Same thing here but we need to make short 223 to do it then it head spaces on the neck shoulder union.

 

When starting out take one case. Take the shortened 223 die and screw down to shell holder and back off half a turn.  Form a case. Then put the viper die in and leave 1 turn off holder, run case in look at how much neck did not size and creep the die down till it just touches the shoulder.– you can trim it in between these steps if you want this is your set up case. So now trim if you didn’t and try to chamber  -- do not build the gun till you get brass to fit the chamber – take a bolt and remove the ejector if you want this step to be easy if you can’t remove the ejector this step will be more difficult. Drop case in chamber and try to close bolt. If it won’t then go back to the 223 form die turn it down a little and try again do this till you can just turn the bolt.  Now take your Viper die and adjust it down till it just kisses the shoulder check how it fits it should chamber a little easier now turn the stinger die in till the bolt closes easy.  Now you have a case.  Now I take a couple more cases and make them up with the dies set as they are if when don the bolt closes easy you should be good to go. If your using a progressive then you just have 2 dies in the press and trim when done.

 


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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #2 
OK, I think I have refined the brass-making procedure a little bit.

1) Using the modified . 223 die (.075 removed) bump the shoulder back to 1.4170 (measured with a 330 insert).
2) Using the 20 Viper forming die, again bump the shoulder until the comparator measures 1.4225.
3) Trim to 1.690.
4) Load and fireform.
5) The final brass measurement will be ~1.4320. This may seem excessive, however, the case is sealing at the neck-shoulder junction during the forming process.

I have included a photo showing brass formed using this procedure and the final fireformed case. The formed cases gained slightly over 1.0 gr. of H20. Viper brass.jpg 


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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #3 
This is the same process I've started using a .222 Rem die.  Now that I have the Viper die to finish the process, I hope to have some loads made up soon.
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RangerJoe

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Edited 29-JAN to adjust lengths and incorporate using chop-saw:

Here are some additional photos and explanation on my process for making .20 Viper brass.  Thanks to Riggs68 for his pioneering effort.

Again - the issue is that attempting to form the Viper's case from its parent .223 Rem/5.56x45mm in one step is too much... setting the shoulder back, changing the shoulder angle, and necking down from .224 to .204 in one step results in crushed cases.  So - we are using a two-step method to produce RTL brass, which - once fired - will yield the final fire-formed maximum capacity case.

I'm using fully processed RTL Lake City, USGI once fired 5.56x45 brass here; all cartridge headspace dimensions are with the Hornady "A" (0.330") comparator insert.  NOTE: This process ONLY works with new or resized .223/5.56 brass (a.k.a. Ready to Load, RTL) - as the .222 Rem forming and .20 Viper dies are not going to full-length resized fired .223/5.56 brass when set up to make ready-to-fire-form Viper cases. 

Step 1: Lube your clean RTL brass.  Since you are using RTL brass, you really only need a tiny bit of lube on the neck/shoulder area. Be sure to get some lube inside the neck.  If you see dimples and/or creases in the shoulder after Step 2, it is likely that you have too much lube on the case.

Step 2: Using a .222 Remington resizing die, push the shoulder back from approximately 1.460" (or whatever your RTL 5.56 brass is) to 1.417"  (+/- 0.001).  The .222 Rem die will NOT be touching the shell holder, it will be about 0.115" above it (based on my press, dies, and feeler gauges).

Step 3A: Since I do not have a 3-way cutter head for .204 caliber, I'm trimming my brass at this stage.  There is actually a lot of brass to trim away, so I set up my mini chop-saw to trim cases to 1.712" (+/- 0.003).  As you know, the chop saw isn't exactly precise; with 30 pcs of brass cut, the shortest was 1.709" and the longest 1.715".  The chop-saw adds an extra step to the process, but only takes seconds per case; yet it saves 3~4 minutes per case trimming.  To me, it is well worth the small extra effort to save that much time trimming.

Step 3B:  Trimming the chopped brass (still at .224 neck diameter) to 1.705" (+/- 0.0005") in the 3-way cutter yields a finished case length of 1.695" (+/- 0.001") once necked down to .204. Once fired-formed, they will shrink down to approximately 1.693"~1.694".  I will trim to 1.695" when necessary.

Step 4: Using the .20 Viper resizing die, neck down the shortened brass and set shoulder closer to 40-degrees.  Adjust the die to yield a cartridge headspace of 1.425" (+/- 0.0005").  Again - the die will NOT be against the shell holder, but will be close (based on my press, dies, etc.) NOTE: This is LONGER than before necking down (it was 1.417") ...  that neck brass is being squeezed into the shoulder.  This allows the brass to perfectly chamber & extract in my .20 Viper barrel & bolt.  Your rifle may be a tiny bit different. My rifle will chamber up to 1.4285" - but extraction with just the charging handle is difficult; at 1.425~1.4265" the bolt closes and opens with minimal effort.

Step 5: Wash brass to remove lube and metal shavings.  Inspect the neck area for cracks or splits; check final lengths to ensure all cases are less than 1.697" OAL.  You now have Ready to Load (RTL) .20 Viper brass for an initial fire-forming load. 

Of course, once fire-formed, you will simply use the .20 Viper die adjusted to yield a shoulder set-back (a.k.a. "bump") of 0.002~0.003" (+/- 0.0005") for reliable feeding and extraction. MAX case length is 1.700" - my trim-to length will be 1.694"; however - I expect it to take multiple firings before this cartridge "grows" to require trimming.

Below photo shows (L to R): RTL 5.56 case w/ 1.460" H/S; Shoulder set back to 1.417" in step 2; Trimmed to 1.705" in step 3; Necked down to .204 with cartridge H/S of 1.425" in step 4 with final length of 1.696".

20 Viper.jpg 



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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerJoe
 Here are some additional photos and explanation on my process for making .20 Viper brass.  Thanks to Riggs68 for his pioneering effort.  …

joe let us know where the length is after fire forming they will shrink. i suggest leaving them around 1.695 on initial forming  excellent write up thanks

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RangerJoe

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Update: I loaded and fired 15 rounds today!  All with 32gr Nosler VG HP Flatbase bullets, CCI-41 primers, and W-748 powder; 5 rounds each at 26.0, 26.5, and 27.0 gr.  COAL=2.080"

26.0gr = 3,565 fps
26.5gr = 3,665 fps
27.0gr = 3,720 fps
27.5gr = 3,788 fps (added 02-Feb) This is about max amount of 748 for new (non-fireformed) brass.

All loads cycled flawlessly... fed, ejected, bolt lock-back, etc.  No pressure signs at all.  Can't tell ejection pattern because I used catcher (can't afford to lose any of these!).

Fired case headspace is 1.4315~1.4325" (+/- 0.001") using Hornady "A" (0.330") H/S Comparator insert.  I will adjust my step 3 above to leave the cases longer, aiming for 1.696".

Note: These cases will be annealed before next resizing & firing.

First test a stellar success!

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RIGGS68

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerJoe
All loads cycled flawlessly... fed, ejected, bolt lock-back, etc.  No pressure signs at all.  Can't tell ejection pattern because I used catcher (can't afford to lose any of these!).

Fired case headspace is 1.4320" +/- 0.0015".  Fired case OAL varied more than I expected between 1.680 and 1.688".  I will adjust my step 3 above to leave the cases longer, aiming for 1.697".

I found that my HS and OAL were more consistent with increased charge weights. The 8208 ladder cases still had rounded shoulders and varied in HS measurements. Conversely,  those from the upper end of the H335 ladder exhibited a more defined shoulder, an average HS of 1.4305" and an OAL of 1.6835" (I trimmed to 1.6880"). Similar to Joe's experience, I never noted any signs of overpressure, therefore, my next ladders are loaded to explore the upper limits a little more.
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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIGGS68
... therefore, my next ladders are loaded to explore the upper limits a little more.
DITTO !! [thumb]

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #9 
I made another batch of ready to fire-form brass today, tweaking the process a bit and using the chop-saw for initial shortening.  I'm editing my OP to reflect the new lengths and steps.
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Cabob

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Reply with quote  #10 
Awesome news. Setting up the dies to fit your chamber and working thru the process of forming is the fun part of wildcatting. This one has my attention! Hmm, and I already have a 222 die, a bunch of LC brass, and a chop saw.... Must resist!!!!
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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabob
Awesome news. Setting up the dies to fit your chamber and working thru the process of forming is the fun part of wildcatting. This one has my attention! Hmm, and I already have a 222 die, a bunch of LC brass, and a chop saw.... Must resist!!!!

“Must resist”. That is blasphemy here 🤪🤪🤪

Just get on the list and start saving lol

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabob
Must resist!!!!
I am Locutius of Borg - Resistance is Futile.
[220px-Picard_as_Locutus]

Get on the list and start assimilating .204 projectiles!  Your experience will be added to the Collective.

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #13 
I have complied...

IMG_0793.jpg 


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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIGGS68
… an average HS of 1.4305" .
Riggs - is there any chance of a typo here?  Your earlier post listed an average final (fireformed) H/S of 1.4320"; not that 0.0015 is a lot of difference.

I measured 50 fired cases tonight and get a average 1.4315~1.4325 (+/-) 0.0005. I annealed and resized 50 cases to H/S at 1.429 +/-.  They chamber and extract with ease.  I found that switching from my standard RCBS #10 shell holder (used to form the brass) to Redding's +.002 holder was all that was necessary to resize fired brass.  I love not having to adjust my dies!!!

I have 40 rounds loaded with X-Term waiting for fireforming/testing: 10 each at 25.0, 25.3, 25.6, and 25.9grs - all with 32gr Nosler VG HPs.

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RIGGS68

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerJoe
Riggs - is there any chance of a typo here?  Your earlier post listed an average final (fireformed) H/S of 1.4320"; not that 0.0015 is a lot of difference.

I measured 50 fired cases tonight and get a average 1.4315~1.4325 (+/-) 0.0005. I annealed and resized 50 cases to H/S at 1.429 +/-.  They chamber and extract with ease.  I found that switching from my standard RCBS #10 shell holder (used to form the brass) to Redding's +.002 holder was all that was necessary to resize fired brass.  I love not having to adjust my dies!!!

I have 40 rounds loaded with X-Term waiting for fireforming/testing: 10 each at 25.0, 25.3, 25.6, and 25.9grs - all with 32gr Nosler VG HPs.

Sorry for the delayed response. I just checked today's fired cases and they measured a "mental mean" of 1.4295.
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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #16 
Roger that!  My resized length is your fired length.  As we always tell folks... "Load to YOUR chamber". 
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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #17 
just set up my dillon 650 with 4 dies and cranked out 200 viper cases. now resetting up and will do 200 stinger cases.
 
i have the modified 223 die -- shortened .070 -- i set the shoulder at 1.389 with the 330 hornady adapter
 
. then i have my viper die here it gets goofy how i measure but i know how things work so that is why i am using this method. i am using the 24 caliber bullet comparator bushing because i want to measure right at the base of the neck since these cases are not fully formed that is where they will head space on. so with the 24 cal bullet comparator i set the cases for 1.495.
 
now i run through my modified 223 trim die i use for the mongoose and ocelot and trim to 1.694 or so give or tak a thousandth.
 
last station is a 20 cal expander


53172709_2428442760550181_1499342232283512832_n.jpg  53110760_759232777791892_471191812548067328_n.jpg 


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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #18 
Exxxxx - cellent!   Nice to have a set up for multistage press.  I bet it took you a LOT less time to crank out your 200 than it took for my first 250 (one slow step at a time).
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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerJoe
Exxxxx - cellent!   Nice to have a set up for multistage press.  I bet it took you a LOT less time to crank out your 200 than it took for my first 250 (one slow step at a time).

once set up about 25 minutes for 200  [biggrin][biggrin]

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGGDAWG
once set up about 25 minutes for 200  [biggrin][biggrin]
I'm not talking to you any more! [mad][bawl][nono][tounge2]




Just Kidding (and jealous)! [thumb]

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