Modern Sporting Rifle Evolution
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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #101 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATEXAN
First post here... <snip>
Welcome - from a former Texan - relocated to SE Arizona.

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Cabob

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Reply with quote  #102 
I'd like to see a .25 caliber with a little "mongoosing". Something in the order of 41 or 42 mm in length, that could run up to at least 100 gr. NBT, and maybe heavier bullets if they were as long or shorter. Very similar caliber (only shorter than the 25 TCU and easily adaptable for the AR platform). It would be everything the 25-45 always dreamed of being! I've always had a fond affinity to .25 calibers, whether it be the 25-20 (Granddad's gun), 257 Bob (my pickup gun) or the AI version (Dad's new pet project), the 25-06 (always have to have at least one), or the 257 Wby (my first semi custom). Lots of good .25 caliber hunting bullets out there. I would buy one in a heartbeat!!!
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MDWS

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Reply with quote  #103 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabob
I'd like to see a .25 caliber with a little "mongoosing". Something in the order of 41 or 42 mm in length, that could run up to at least 100 gr. NBT, and maybe heavier bullets if they were as long or shorter. Very similar caliber (only shorter than the 25 TCU and easily adaptable for the AR platform). It would be everything the 25-45 always dreamed of being! I've always had a fond affinity to .25 calibers, whether it be the 25-20 (Granddad's gun), 257 Bob (my pickup gun) or the AI version (Dad's new pet project), the 25-06 (always have to have at least one), or the 257 Wby (my first semi custom). Lots of good .25 caliber hunting bullets out there. I would buy one in a heartbeat!!!

That is basically what the .257 Ocelot is, which we have coming out shortly.  It's basically a 6mm Mongoose necked up to .25 cal.  There's a thread or two here about it.

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Cabob

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Reply with quote  #104 
Mark, Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
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Cabob

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Reply with quote  #105 
I'm still very excited about this. Been saving up my pesos! I wish I could trade a deer or antelope hunt for a barrel.... or at least part of a hunt!
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MDWS

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Reply with quote  #106 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabob
I'm still very excited about this. Been saving up my pesos! I wish I could trade a deer or antelope hunt for a barrel.... or at least part of a hunt!
Where are you located?  I'm sure someone will want to take you up on this...

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wikster1983

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Reply with quote  #107 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabob
I'm still very excited about this. Been saving up my pesos! I wish I could trade a deer or antelope hunt for a barrel.... or at least part of a hunt!

Pm'd for info

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Livn358YETI

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Reply with quote  #108 
Quote:
Originally Posted by toagnt
I have had an idea for an AR cartridge I'd love to see....... Maybe it's been done before though I don't know. How about take a 10mm case neck it down to 9mm similar to a .357 sig and build it for an AR platform. They already make .40 s&w bolts for ARs, they already make Lowers that use glock or colt mags, glock and colt both make 10mm mags ( not 100% sure Colt makes the 10mm mag I'm thinking about). All it would take would be a barrel really. I am pretty sure you could use .357 sig dies to turn 10mm brass into the NEW .357 HELLBENDER Brass. All this would make the most ass kicking pistol cartridge I've seen in an AR. Now all this would mean it hasn't been done before LOL. I remember the last time I was talking to Kurt from KAK Industries about some wildcats rounds and said I wish someone had made or would make a .270 cal AR based on the 5.56 rd like the 300 BO. Kurt laughed and said it was already done several years ago and he turned me on to MDWS. So you see why I am not confident this hasn't been done before.

Whats you're describing is a 9x25 Dillon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9725mm_Dillon

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helix6

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Reply with quote  #109 
I have a high level of interest in any of the 5.56/223 based cartridges and I don't think I'm alone in that. There is a reason that 300BLK, 6x45, 277WLV are so successful. It is a straightforward change on the AR-15 platform and brass is plentiful. I would break out the whole cartridge offering by parent case - 5.56, 6.8, and .458 SOCOM - those seem to be the most straightforward conversions for the AR. So... long story short - round out the .223 based case offering first and foremost:

20 Practical (already going there it appears)
243MGS (next on my list)
6.5 PCC or something similar...?
277WLV (going strong)
7.62x40 (selection looks good)
357AR Rimless (I would be all over this one)

I honestly don't think .257, .284 or .338 are great fits in the .223 case due to the calibers bracketing them and the bullet selection. There are much better bullet ranges in .243, .264, .308, and .357 (which would be covered by my list above).
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pnw

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Reply with quote  #110 
"357AR Rimless (I would be all over this one)"

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SteveOM

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Reply with quote  #111 
As far as what you haven't done yet? I think the 357AR Max/Rimless 14.7"-16" has peaked my interest. If it proves a reliable feeder (I know it's done well in the limited number of guns made so far), I think it's a great idea! I'd like to see what it could do (if it will digest them in an AR) with the 140gr Barnes XPB and the Lehigh 140 Penetrator. I'm in lead free hunting Kommifornica so these would potentially be good hog and blacktail deer whackers! If the 105gr Lehigh controlled fracturing didn't come apart mid flight they'd be incredible home protection and close in coyote medicine too.

I might also be interested in a 6mm based on the 6.8 or the 22 Nosler, shoulder pushed back/neck trimmed if needed so it could make good use of longer bullets fed from a magazine. Maybe like H's Tac 6, or your teams own spin on things. 20-22" midweight barrel, maybe fluted as option. This would make a nice lightweight rifle for long range bigger varmints, smaller deer/hogs, or target shooting at ranges beyond 5.56. BTW Starline has 6.8 brass coming out in about a month, maybe they'll do 22 Nosler too. Starline in the game means cheaper and more available brass for these calibers and cats based on them.

On the 357 would be nice if one of your partners offered brass like they do for the Wolverine and 'Goose, just so folks might be able to start up sooner until they invested in the few extra forming tools.

A 44 on the 308/30-06 cut down sounds great too, especially if HP bolts/extensions become more readily sourced. With HP set up you could get the most out of this cartridge (although I'd probably not due to my back injuries). Regardless it would allow extra margin of safety even with the lower pressure loads.

Best
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Charles.k.terry

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Reply with quote  #112 
What about a 308 case shortened like the yeti but necked for a.277?
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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #113 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles.k.terry
What about a 308 case shortened like the yeti but necked for a.277?

In the works

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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #114 
I decided to belay my desire for a .20 Practical and am anxiously awaiting BiggDawg's .20 Viper prototype (a .204 based on the Mongoose case)!  I opted for a 1:12" twist 20" lightweight custom barrel - as my plan is to shoot light bullets REALLY fast.  I have Nosler 32gr Varmageddon and 40gr Ballistic Tips waiting on the shelf!  Can't wait to see what this will do to Arizona ZJRs.  (Zombie Jack Rabbits)  I'm expecting a red-mist... [eek]
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Jaron

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Reply with quote  #115 
I was really looking forward to the 6.5 mongrel as a relatively cheap precision plinking round.  But if you can't get a 223 case to work well with 120 - 140gr 6.5 bullets, that leaves the Timberwolf.  But going that route means a new bolt, and possibly new mags, in addition to the barrel.  That's close to $400 and you can get cheap bolt actions in 6.5 CM for that.

Maybe I should look at the Ocelot again, but I'm not sure either that or the Wlv is a 500 - 600yd target round like I'm hoping for.  Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am I'm sure someone will correct me.  Or maybe I'll just build my own bolt gun.  I seem to have a pattern of going the expensive route to get something exactly to my odd requirements.

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g2sws

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Reply with quote  #116 
This sounds very interesting. 308 case .277 bullet. You have my attention.
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wikster1983

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Reply with quote  #117 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaron
I was really looking forward to the 6.5 mongrel as a relatively cheap precision plinking round.  But if you can't get a 223 case to work well with 120 - 140gr 6.5 bullets, that leaves the Timberwolf.  But going that route means a new bolt, and possibly new mags, in addition to the barrel.  That's close to $400 and you can get cheap bolt actions in 6.5 CM for that.

Maybe I should look at the Ocelot again, but I'm not sure either that or the Wlv is a 500 - 600yd target round like I'm hoping for.  Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am I'm sure someone will correct me.  Or maybe I'll just build my own bolt gun.  I seem to have a pattern of going the expensive route to get something exactly to my odd requirements.

I have seen the Mongoose shot at 550 yards, and it did very well in the given 10-20mph wind gusts that day. The Ocelot will run just as well with heavier bullets. As with all these smaller capacity cartridges lighter bullets are better, but at a cost of range for expansion (not an issue on targets) and wind will always affect drift.

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Jaron

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Reply with quote  #118 
I'm just trying to get the broadest coverage of uses with the fewest chamberings possible.  I'd eventually like rounds that can cover personal/home defense, cheap plinking, 200 - 400yd mule deer hunting ( just in case I decide to try it ), and a long range paper punching.  I finished my 300 BO last month specifically for defensive use.  I've been planning on the WLV for a while for mulie hunting ( and just a good general purpose round ).  But I have to hold off on that and any other 'cat until they pass SAAMI or I get reloading gear.

I just don't know enough if the WLV, Ocelot, or Mongoose can be a long-range round without being complete slaves to wind drift or if they bleed off speed too fast after some point and require huge holdovers.  If one of them can do that, and handle mule deer out to 400 yds, then that and a basic 223 upper for cheap plinking would round out my needs nicely.

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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #119 
Quote:
Originally Posted by g2sws
This sounds very interesting. 308 case .277 bullet. You have my attention.

Technically it is based on the Dasher case like the Sabercat and Timberwolf, but if you want to neck turn - you can use .308 brass like the rest of them.

We will also have our own brass that will work.

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BIGGDAWG

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Reply with quote  #120 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaron
I'm just trying to get the broadest coverage of uses with the fewest chamberings possible.  I'd eventually like rounds that can cover personal/home defense, cheap plinking, 200 - 400yd mule deer hunting ( just in case I decide to try it ), and a long range paper punching.  I finished my 300 BO last month specifically for defensive use.  I've been planning on the WLV for a while for mulie hunting ( and just a good general purpose round ).  But I have to hold off on that and any other 'cat until they pass SAAMI or I get reloading gear.

I just don't know enough if the WLV, Ocelot, or Mongoose can be a long-range round without being complete slaves to wind drift or if they bleed off speed too fast after some point and require huge holdovers.  If one of them can do that, and handle mule deer out to 400 yds, then that and a basic 223 upper for cheap plinking would round out my needs nicely.

The Mongoose will fill that need, and if you want long, you can single load the 105's but it will shoot up to 95's at mag length it is accurate and can be very cheap to shoot if you grab the 55 grain shots for 7 cents each -- i got them for 6 cents one time so i can shoot it cheaper than 556.  It is an absolute laser, ask anyone that has one they are tack drivers.

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Jaron

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Reply with quote  #121 
Thanks for that.  I'm definitely in the "green belt" stage.  I know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to not embarrass myself.  I've just read a few things tonight that suggest my BLK could be a suitable deer rifle out to 300 yds with the right ammo ( I thought it would be restricted to about 200 yds ).
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RangerJoe

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Reply with quote  #122 
Jaron - be sure you verify what you read.  Go to the ballistics tables - check and double-check, separate facts from speculation from opinions.  There are folks that claim a .22LR is fine for taking deer at 100 yards too; not something any ethical sportsman would attempt under any normal circumstance. 

The 7.62x40 is considerably more powerful (and generally accurate) than a 300 BO with supersonic ammo.  With 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tips from a 16" barrel, we easily (safely) get 2,475 fps (measured - not guessed) MV. With that bullet and typical atmospherics, you have over 950 ft-lbs of energy at 300 yards and less than a 15" drop from a 150 yard zero (1.4 mil hold over).  https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/sample-ballistics-tables-7818185?pid=1290058418  An 18" barrel would produce 25 or more FPS increase.

Now, how much energy is necessary to cleanly kill a deer with decent (but not perfect) shot placement?  That is highly debatable... but I hold to an 800 ft-lb minimum (more is better).  At 375 yards, that bullet is still over 800 ft-lbs from the cartridge/load specified.

You won't find a 300 BO load able to do that.

You can run the same sorts of numbers with the .277 WLV, 6mm Mongoose, .257 Ocelot, the 300 BO, and every/any other cartridge you are considering.  But deal in facts if you want a scientific approach to a selection process.

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Jaron

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Reply with quote  #123 
No worries, I'm definitely double- and triple-checking things right now.  Just used that as an example that I know enough to think, "Wait, 300 BLK @ 300 yds starts dropping off fast, is this right?", but I also am not an expert enough to immediately dismiss or confirm it.  Going by the specs listed on manufacturer's sites ( which aren't 100% accurate of course ), some are listing ballistics with 110-130 gr rounds at 300 yds with 630 ft-lbs less than 20" drop on a 100 yd zero.  If true, it just gets me thinking that some slightly hotter custom loads might be enough to be fully confident of taking shots at that range.  But while most companies use a 16" test barrel for all their 300 BLK specs, I've seen some list a 20" ( must be to juice their printed specs since I've never seen an off-the-shelf BLK barrel longer than 16" ).

It's a far off dream right now, though.  I've got no magnified optics, no reloading gear, no tag, and no big game experience.  Only thing I've hunted to this point are rabbits and grouse ( the latter is an amusing tale about a time I knew WAY less about firearms than I do now ).

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Charles.k.terry

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Reply with quote  #124 
Bigdawg sorry for the late reply. A .277 in a shortened and necked down 7.62 NATO has to have the neck turned? I am brand new to wildcats can you explain why the extra prep? Is it because the case is thicker at the location needed to make it work in an AR 15?
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CbarM

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Reply with quote  #125 
Would you be able to put the 243wssm in a ar15 platform and if so could you build me a barrel?
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